INTERVIEWING DR. BILLY GRAHAM

One of my greatest honors in life was to interview Dr. Billy Graham, the greatest soul-winning evangelist of the Twentieth Century, when I was news director at KEAR-fm in San Francisco in 1969. I was with the professors of the University of California in Berkley as Dr. Graham spoke to them. Here are a few of my memories of that morning:

Billy began his message by saying, "Thank you for inviting me to speak to you this morning. I don't deserve this honor. Instead, I want to apologize to you that it is most likely you have neverheard a pure presentation of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sadly, the churches of America have, for the most part, blurred the gospel by adding their own heavy weights to Christ's unburdened invitation to come to Him and receive eternal life from Him."

Dr. Graham then launched into a message unlike the simple gospel messages that were his hallmark during his 56 years of a preaching ministry. It is estimated that during that time he led 3.2 million people to Christ. His message that day brought a pure presentation of the gospel surrounded by a profound and intellectual message worthy of the professors who had attended the breakfast to hear him.

Whether Dr. Graham had any converts that day, only Heaven knows. But whatever happened, it was obvious he had won many admirers among the faculty.

After a 34 minute message, he spoke and prayed individually with every professor who sought him out. When all that was complete, he allowed an interview with me.

I told him how amazed I was at the depth of the message he had brought the teachers. I admitted I had always heard him preach to stadiums full of people and that I was always amazed, too, by the simplicity in which he shared. He said, "The message one preaches needs to fit the people it is intended for. In our crusades, I preach most of all to the uneducated and the Bible illiterate. I know when I do that I will definitely be heard by everyone else."

I told Dr. Graham, who had just flown into the San Francisco Airport earlier that morning in order to be driven to the breakfast in Berkley, that I couldn't imagine how tired he must be from all that. Billy answered, "Yes, I must admit I am tired. Breakfasts in distant states are hardest on me. And I have an additional problem most people don't have. I'm Billy Graham! Wherever I sit on a plane, one or more passengers are bound to come to me and ask me if I am he. I am a Christian and can't lie to them! But once I tell them yes, for the rest of the flight I hear one of two things: Most want to share their testimony with me, especially if I had any place at all in leading them to Christ; the other wants to tell me why they are not a Christian and try to provoke me to argument over that fact. I won't argue with them, but I will share with them a defense of the gospel. I have led a few of them to Christ under such dialogue."

He further said something to me that is laughable now considering the fact that Billy is 94. He said, "I don't expect to live a long life, but the life I live is above all I could ask or think. It is worth whatever toll life takes from me. I have a pattern of going like a marathon runner from crusade to crusade, interrupted by my doctor who tries to scare me into resting from my agenda. Every once in awhile my body breaks down into something serious enough to make me stop completely. At such times my same doctor always comes to me to say, 'Billy, be sure you're right with God! You need complete rest from your travels in order to possibly get well.' So, I agree and Ruth and I stay home or occasionally vacation somewhere. I do obey Hebrews 4:1-3."

One thing no one could possibly miss when they are talking with Billy Graham. He has eyes that are for their eyes only. His focus is such that I felt he could see not only me but through me.

My notes from that very special interview are long gone except for that opening. But here is an interview with Dr. Graham that I put on my former News Watch Website on April 7, 2007. I introduced it by writing: From time to time I will have a night like this one when it is simply impossible for me to write a commentary because of commitments of my own or that Georgia has that I'm to be a part of.. We are five weeks away from graduating from Bethel’s School of the Supernatural in Redding, California. Tonight, would you believe, we will be doing homework way into the wee small hours of the morning. At 70, I sure am glad I’m young.

On nights like these I will still provide a NEWS WATCH to you. This one will catch you up with one of my real heroes – Dr. Billy Graham. But the news source Newsmax did this interview with Dr. Graham and his answers regarding news so nearly mirror my own that I believe you’ll find this quick interview enriching. It’s my prayer you’ll enjoy it.

He is 88 now, bent by age and ailments, spending his days sitting with his beloved bedridden wife, Ruth, at their home in the mountains of North Carolina.

Yet the stature of Billy Graham, whose global ministry got its start in Minnesota, continues to grow. In December, the Gallup Poll named him among the 10 most admired men in the world - a 50th time for him on that list.

Few living Christians have been stronger unifying forces, commanded such respect or influenced more people. Among high-profile evangelists, he stands out for personal integrity, openness to cultural change and a lack of interest in wealth.

Graham, who has made only a few personal appearances in the past years, rarely grants interviews. He spoke to the Star Tribune - by e-mail, due to his poor health - because he has a deep appreciation for Minnesota, where he was a Bible college president and created the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.

In the interview, he reflects on his desire to see heaven soon, his concerns about the war in Iraq and the changes taking place in American evangelism.

How are you and your wife, Ruth, doing?

Graham: One of the joys of growing older is the opportunity for us to spend more time together. Sometimes we'll just sit for hours, holding hands and talking or watching a video, or even just enjoying each other's company in silence. After a lifetime of travel and being apart so much, we treasure this stage of our lives.

At the same time, old age has its burdens, and we aren't immune. Whoever said, "Old age isn't for sissies" had it right. For years Ruth has struggled with serious pain because of the degeneration of the bone structure in her back, and she is now bedridden. I have several continuing health issues. Ruth and I know that each day is a gift from God, and we are thankful for them.

America's evangelical subculture has recently undergone some interesting changes, including the rise of new, more liberal voices whose views on cultural issues stand in sharp contrast to those of the religious right. What do you make of such changes?

Graham: As an evangelist, my calling has always been to proclaim the central message of the gospel: What Christ did for us by His death and resurrection, and our need to respond to Him in repentance and faith. I've always tried to avoid being associated with groups that focus on political issues, either on the right or the left. That isn't my calling.

Sometimes trying to be neutral isn't easy - kind of like the man I heard about in the Civil War who decided to wear a blue coat and gray trousers and got shot at by both sides!

However, I'm very concerned about the growing polarization we see today, both in our society generally and even among some evangelicals. Somehow we've got to find a way to get past this and find a common ground.

Have your views on such issues as foreign policy and homosexuality grown more liberal through the decades?

Graham: Well, I hope they've grown more balanced over the years, although I try to avoid labels like "liberal" or "conservative."

When I was young, I thought I knew the answer to almost everything, and I cringe when I look back at some of those ill-considered remarks. The world is complex, and as I've grown older I've learned that foreign-policy issues, for example, usually aren't as easy as they may seem on the surface.

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle that is endorsed by the Bible, although I don't believe Christians should single out homosexuals for condemnation or contempt. God loves the homosexual just as much as the heterosexual, and so should we. We have all sinned, and we all need God's grace and forgiveness. We also all need God's strength to fight temptation and to change our lives.

Do you follow news from the Middle East and Iraq? If so, is there anything you'd like to say about the conflicts in those places?

Graham: I try to follow the news from there, and Ruth and I pray every day for our president. I don't think any of us can appreciate the pressures he faces. We pray also for our military personnel who are serving over there, and for their families.

One of our grandsons - Franklin's son Edward - is serving over there as an Army Ranger, and a few weeks ago he was wounded by shrapnel while on duty. Thankfully, he is recovering, but this has brought home to us what the families of our military personnel are going through.

Some of the tensions in the Middle East go back thousands of years to Abraham in the Bible, with the births of Ishmael and Isaac. I also think we aren't as knowledgeable about Islam as we should be, or the centuries-old conflict between the Sunnis and the Shiites. These conflicts took centuries to develop, and they won't be solved overnight.

At the same time, we ought to pray for peace in that part of the world, and encourage our leaders to do everything they can to promote peace.

What has age shown you most vividly?

Graham: To depend on the Lord for everything, and to be thankful for everything he gives us, including hope for the future. I've also learned that even if we can't do everything we once did, God isn't finished with us, and we can still serve him. Sometimes the greatest service we can do for someone is to pray for them, and I find myself doing that more and more.

I admit I don't like the burdens of old age, but it can be a special time of life, and God has lessons to teach us through it, if we'll only listen. Unfortunately, we can become so preoccupied with whatever is happening to us at the moment - or so worried about what might happen to us in the future - that we forget to ask God what he is trying to teach us.

Sometimes, of course, God isn't teaching us something new, but simply reminding us of things we've known all our lives, and making them more real to us. For example, more than ever I've realized just how short life is, and how important it is to live for eternity and not just the present.

This world is not our final home, and if we are Christians, we know we are only pilgrims passing through this world on our way to Heaven. We ought to live each day as if it were our last. Someday it will be.

Kathryn Kuhlman: God’s Great Lady, My Great Friend by Ray Mossholder

My first response to the greatest ministering person I’ve ever known was to despise her. I only had to hear the opening words of her radio program, spoken without exaggeration in the weirdest voice I’ve ever heard: “Hellllooooo there, have you been waiting for meeeeeeeee?” I'd take authority over the radio and in my imagination cast all the demons out of it, then quickly turn the dial.

In 1968 I was a totally cocky news director for a Christian radio station in San Francisco. That's where the idea came to me. I learned that Kathryn “ministered healing” once a month at the 7,000 seat Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles. “Aha” says me. “I will go to there and expose Kathryn Kuhlman for the huge phony she really is.”

It was early summer. I was newly saved and newly baptized in the Holy Spirit, but already a youth director and associate pastor to a senior pastor who absolutely hated any idea of women in ministry. He taught women were to keep their place. As for my own prejudice, I didn't believe at all that Christ still healed people today.

God was about to teach me His ways. But in my mind as a newsman, a fraud like Kathryn Kuhlman should have someone “prove” to the world what a real fruitcake she was. Flying to Los Angeles for the expose’ of the century, I felt like a crusader with a most noble cause.

I had learned one other thing that pleased my vanity. Because I was in ministry at both the radio station and a church, I was going to be allowed to sit on stage to watch her “performance.” I thought, “This will give me a ring-side seat for this fiasco. I’ll bet she pays everybody big bucks if they’ll just say they’re healed!” I never thought for a moment what such hush money would cost her, since she did MANY HUGE MEETINGS every single month.

When I first passed by the Shrine Auditorium in my rent-a-car, I was stunned to see such a huge crowd standing outside. I thought, “They must open the doors awfully late for her meeting. It looks like the whole seven thousand people are still waiting to get in.” Imagine my surprise when I walked towards the door and realized all those people standing out there were people who couldn’tget in. The auditorium was already full of seven thousand people!

Had I not had a special pass they’d sent me, I undoubtedly would have, by necessity, been turned away too. But the man at the door took my pass while warmly smiling at me and said, “Welcome, Sir. I know you’re going to enjoy this. I’ll be praying for you.” Then still another smiling man ushered me in.

I was taken to the steps that led to the stage and the man told me, “Just walk up there and choose your seat.” I thanked him and began to climb the steps. THAT is when I got one of the biggest surprises of my life. Kathryn Kuhlman was standing in the wings, and like the two men, she was smiling at me too.

I don’t remember at all my first stuttering words to her, but I know that within a minute she was saying to me (as if she absolutely knew the purpose I had in mind for coming), “You’ll never know how plain I am! I’m plainer than most of the women sitting out there in that crowd today. There are seven thousand people out there and they all expect to see miracles. Well, I can’t do any miracles; only Jesus can in the power of the Holy Spirit.” I thought to myself, “THAT’S the strangest thing I’ve ever heard a PHONY say!”

She told me I could sit anywhere on stage. I walked out there and spotted an empty chair. I sat down on it next to a man who was 107 years old! He didn’t look 107. He looked much younger. I told him, “You’re kidding, aren’t you?” He took out his wallet and showed me his birth certificate! I was stunned. I asked him, “What’s the secret of your long life, Sir?” He answered, “I’ve honored my mother and father since childhood.” I instantly heard the Holy Spirit tell me, “My Word is true!”

The thrill of being at a Kathryn Kuhlman rally has to be something similar to the entrance into heaven we’ll have when we finally step out of our earth-suits. Dino Kartsonakis played glorious piano music; black Jimmy McDonald sang the rafters down; and at that moment staring at seven thousand people sitting in front of the stage, a heavenly choir began singing - a choir that I just knew must have featured the very best voices of all the churches in the Los Angeles area.

No one in a million years could have convinced me that day that one day Dino Kartsonakis’s mother would make me Greek dolmas for breakfast for a full week while her son and I ministered together on television over PTL in Charlotte, North Carolina. Or that on yet another week, Jimmy McDonald and I would travel and minister together in New Zealand! Or that it would happen BECAUSE of Kathryn Kuhlman and what I saw happen that day before my own puppy eyes that God was suddenly opening WIDE.

As for the music, there is only one other place I have ever been that brought me so close to God. Two different years I taught at Hillsong in Sydney, Australia, at their ten thousand seat summer conference, and danced in the Spirit before the magnificent worship music of Darlene Czech and the Hillsong team. Kathryn’s rallies and Darlene’s worship leading and singing were exactly what Reverend Bill Johnson would say created an “Open Heaven.”

With all the ecstasy Dino, Jimmy and that choir took me to, I was still unprepared for Kathryn’s entrance. Kathryn on her radio program was ALWAYS called a “young woman.” THAT’S the only thing some might call an exaggeration that I ever saw in ANYTHING Kathryn did or said. Somewhere in her late sixties (she never wanted anyone to know exactly), Kathryn nevertheless “floated in” with ballet steps to greet the applauding crowd. She wore a flowing white gown – a beautiful gown - and she led the seven thousand people in a couple of great hymns while Dino played. She was SO serious, SO full of the Holy Spirit, SO vibrant and alive, that I began to think, “She IS a young woman after all!”

Kathryn had NO multiple personalities. But her preaching voice was totally different than her normal talking voice. Roberts Liardon describes her preaching perfectly in his book GOD'S GENERALS, when he quotes her saying, “I-ah…belieeeeeeeeeeeve-ah-in-ah-merrrrrrrrricals-ah!”

When she talked about the “Holllllllllllllllllyyyyy Spirrrrrit,” which was constantly, you could almost SEE Him, and you could certainly FEEL Him. Kathryn was sometimes described by critics as being over-dramatic, but don’t tell ME that…or anyone else among the million or more whose lives she touched. I think it will always be a case of you would have had to have been there in the Spirit to discern her spirit rightly.

The late Jamie Buckingham wrote in his book Daughter Of Destiny that “Kathryn Kuhlman was long-winded.” She did often speak for close to two hours. But she told me why. She said, “I have to preach as long as it takes to have the anointing fall on me. Healings won’t happen at all until I know He’s there. As soon as the Holy Spirit anoints me for whoever I am with, big crowd or one person, healing begins.”

That day I saw the miracles Kathryn believed in. People rose from wheelchairs and ran to the stage; huge tumors disappeared; blind eyes opened, the deaf could suddenly hear clearly…on and on the healings took place on all three balconies of the Shrine auditorium. No section was left without healing after healing after healing.

Kathryn would stand on the platform and declare the healings. “There’s a man up there in the third balcony over on the right who couldn’t have heard me a moment ago. The Holy Spirit has healed you. Say 'Hoo Hoo.” And a man in the third balcony who had been deaf until that moment would cry out in a stunned voice, “Hoo Hoo!”

The healings would continue: “There’s a young boy sitting down here in the back part of the bottom floor on the left hand side. You’ve had a cleft palate until this moment. If your mommy or daddy is sitting next to you, have them look at you now.” Often you’d hear a scream of unbelievable joy as someone looked at someone else and could visibly see their healing. The healings continued for far more than an hour, usually closer to two.

Ushers would bring the amazed people now freed of whatever had made them sick, was supposed to kill them, had crippled them, or was just something no one would ever want to live with, up on the stage to meet Kathryn. One by one they’d share with Kathryn and the crowd what God had just healed them of. Many would be crying or laughing hysterically, awestruck at what God had done. Kathryn told me later that in her meetings it was absolute unbelievers that got healed the quickest all the time. And the second most quickly healed were Christians who didn’t believe in healing at all.

She would never move into the second phase of her ministry time without first giving everybody present the opportunity to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. In an atmosphere of miracles there was a great desire from a large amount of unbelievers to give their lives to Christ. Kathryn would again explain, “I can't heal anybody. Only Jesus Christ can with the power of the Holy Spirit.”

Kathryn would briefly interview each person that had been brought to the stage because they'd been healed, asking many of them to walk, leap, dance, or flex – to use body parts they couldn't have used until the Holy Spirit had touched them that day. The people would easily do what she told them – thrilled with being totally free of the crippling pain they'd known. Many cried, others shouted praises to God, still others were embarrassed to be in front of such a huge crowd but obviously stunned that they'd been healed.

And Kathryn had still a third voice. It was as down-home as southern cooking and apple pie. She took the newly healed completely off guard with a friendly southern drawl.

Nearly every time someone would step to the microphone and tell Kathryn what they’d been healed of, she'd look at them with eyes like beavers staring into headlights and exclaim, “Reeeealllly?” She was absolutely sincere with her surprise, and in complete awe of the healings, knowing the healings hadn't been done by her, but by the Lord.

Two healings blew me away even more than the other healings that day - though every healing I saw proved to me more and more that Kathryn was no phony, but the most anointed person of God I had ever seen.

The first breath-taking healing was a creative miracle to the max. A sixteen-month-old baby had been spastic from birth. She was absolutely healed, just as Kathryn had declared it! A charge regularly made by her mockers was that everyone “healed” at Kathryn's rallies were simply psychosomatically healed. Think about it: Do you know any babies who could possibly “psychosomaticly” heal themselves?

The second heart-gripping miracle was that of a woman who had had a brace on her leg for 25 years and had always hobbled terribly when she walked. Her 21-year-old son stood sobbing on the stage as his mother walked across it for the first time in his life as straight as anyone can walk!

By the end of that unforgettable first day of watching Kathryn and all those healings, I knew how terribly wrong I had ever been to doubt her. In fact, I loved this lady in her flowing white gown and knew Jesus had not only called her but equipped her for this work of service she performed. And there is only one word that could ever again describe her best to me: REAL.

At the end of Kathryn’s meetings, after praising Jesus Christ for the miracle healings by the Holy Spirit everyone had seen, she would then look like she was going to cry. She hated more than anything the fact that NOT EVERYONE in her meetings got healed. To them she would say, “I don’t know WHY Jesus doesn’t heal EVERYONE. It’s the very first question I’m going to ask Him when I get to heaven.” (If she ever did THAT, she never came back to tell us what He told her!)

Her last words to every crowd were always the same. She said, “Some people believe it’s salvation where it begins…and ends. And other people believe it’s the baptism in the Holy Spirit where it begins… and ends.” It was at that point that she would lean forward in such a way that it looked like she might fall off of the platform because she was straining so hard to wake the people. She’d say, “Oh people, there’s MORE, there’s MORE, there’s MUCH, MUCH MORE!”

I don’t know whether anyone else in that whole auditorium heard the truth of those words. I DID! And I declared before God that in spite of the fact that I had no idea what that “MUCH MUCH MORE” meant…I was going to find out. My life of miracles began that day and has NEVER EVER stopped.

It’s too long a story to tell you now, but I got fired and kicked out of my church when I shared the miracles I'd seen at Kathryn's rally. The pastor was furious with me for telling the Sunday night congregation about what I had seen a ministering woman do. He wanted the people to believe Kathryn Kuhlman was a phony. SHE WASN’T! OH, PRAISE GOD, SHE WASN’T!

I began to do what Kathryn Kuhlman had quoted that day about healing: I laid hands on the sick AND THEY WERE HEALED, just as the Bible said they would be. I quickly entered into the healing ministry and was a healing evangelist for eight years (1970-’78). Even in the 23 years that followed all those signs and wonders, years of teaching marriage and singles seminars, along with other things, healing was a constant part of my ministry It will never stop until I do.

Because of my healing ministry, Demos Shakarian, the late International President of The Full Gospel Businessmen, and I, became very close friends. I ministered healing on television with him, did multitudes of Full Gospel Businessmen’s breakfasts and dinners, and he flew to New Zealand to introduce evangelist Dick Mills and me to a crowd of fifty thousand people who came to a horse race  track in Auckland for eight days and nights to receive our ministries.

In 1973, Demos invited me to speak at the World Conference of the Full Gospel Businessmen at the Americana Hotel in New York City. Among others who ministered at that convention was Kathryn Kuhlman.

The evening Kathryn ministered, Demos brought me up on stage and before the crowd of several thousand he introduced me formally to her, telling the story about that day when I came to prove she was a phony and being launched instead into a whole new world of healing by the Holy Spirit. Kathryn was delighted. She roared with laughter. After Demos finished telling that story, he interviewed me for a moment. As soon as the two of us were through, Kathryn simply stepped up and laid hands on both of us. We hit the stage floor instantly, slain in the Spirit. The crowd roared with laughter too.

As we slowly stood up again, knowing that I had a healing ministry because of what I’d seen her do, she laid hands on both of us again, saying as she did it, “I pray a double portion of the anointing of my healing ministry on you!” We crumpled to the floor again. The crowd was once again hysterical with laughter. Once Demos and I finally got up the second time, Kathryn backed up and just smiled. I staggered back to my seat.

Kathryn again loosed the glorious power of the Holy Spirit's healing throughout the massive crowd. Heaven touched earth with healing after healing.

After she was done that night she saw me still sitting among the people on stage. She walked over to me said, “I have to go change. But would you join me for a late supper?” I was thrilled. That night was again a night that further changed my life forever.

We clicked. She had so much to share with me, so much to teach me. And she had that same quality I had seen from her first meeting – she was REAL.

We would get together six more times in her lifetime…each time a night to remember. Focusing on her, I’ll only tell you these things now:

Kathryn often spoke of her daddy. She idolized him. He would come home from work and as a very little girl she would jump up on a chair to tightly hug her tall daddy. One winter night she jumped up on the chair and slipped, falling full force with her hands on a red-hot Lincoln stove. She said, “I was in terrible agony and I left my palm prints there!”

I don’t think we ever had any of those meals together without her sometime during it reminding me again how “plain” she was. She’d say, “I’m as plain as vanilla. And people don’t like that about me. They think I ought to be like I am on stage all the time. In fact, if I could just disappear between meetings and drop down to earth on a cloud when a crowd has gathered again, people would like me SO much better!”

Kathryn laughed at jokes. She cried when people hurt. She listened as well as talked. And she always cared more about the other person than herself. One of the biggest disappointments she had in her whole life was an evening we got together after she had returned from a military hospital full of paraplegics. She cried as she told me, “Ray, I wanted them healed with all my heart. I begged the Lord to heal them. And, in the end, all I could give them was wheelchairs.”

Kathryn encouraged me every time we met to keep laying hands on the sick. Then she'd add, “Then, after they’re healed, send them to their doctor and have their doctor sign his name to the fact that they are healed. I mean, ANYONE can say they're healed in one of my meetings. Most often it will be true. But if they afterwards go to their doctor so that he can confirm it, it can soften that doctor's heart to realize our Lord has healed someone. That can cause that doctor to believe and receive Jesus. And, of course, his signature will verify the miracle.” In all of the books she wrote, no healing was ever mentioned WITHOUT a doctor's verification first.

I asked Kathryn one time about that baby who had been a spastic that I saw healed at the first of her rallies I’d attended. She said, “Julie’s doing SO great. She's been healthy from that day on, just as though she’d never had a physical problem at all. Her mother and I have talked on the phone several times. Her husband isn’t a Christian and she needs my encouragement.”

I told Kathryn I was shocked that her husband remained an unbeliever after his baby had received such an obvious miracle. “Oh,” she said, “he wouldn’t believe it was a miracle. When her mother brought her home and expected him to be as thrilled as she was, he just looked at the baby and said, ‘She wasn't healed. She just suddenly got well today. I knew she would.’ Even doctor’s couldn’t convince him that it couldn’t have just ‘happened.’ There are none so blind as those who will not see!

The last time I ever talked with Kathryn was by phone less than six months before she died. She was in a great deal of pain and she could only talk for about five minutes. But I’ll never forget her final words to me. She said, “Ray, I’m down, but I’m not out. Remember, “I-ah…belieeeeeeeeeeeve-ah-in-ah-merrrrrrrrricals-ah!”

by Ray Mossholder